I once read a “Zen” story, I don't know or don't remember where, - about a monk, - or maybe not a monk, asking his teacher, - “where will you go after you die?”.
In spite of what is said here, - none of the quotes here is necessarily supposed to be exact. I don't even remember when I read this.
- The master replied: - “Straight to hell”. – “How come?” - the student wondered. – “Otherwise, - who is going to be there to save lost souls such as yourself?” – replied the master whose name I don't remember.
- In the last answer I even wrote somewhat more freely, - but it does not seem to matter. – The point is about wages we get or are supposed to get from Heaven in accord with our good or bad deeds. - Essential it is not. – In a way they are treating us like a herd of cows. How should we relate to these? - I am not in Heaven. I do not have their view. But it does not seem pleasant. - In a way it might seem even ugly. Jesus speaks about it a lot. But Jesus lived about 2,000 years ago. Master Dogen speak about the reality of karma, - of these facts being real, - (as much as this world or any other are real) but he does not tell us we should not act in accord with them. Nishijima says Master Dogen [usually?] write four chapters about each issue. We know Master Dogen intended to add 25 chapters to those he has written for the Shobogenzo. So perhaps it would have been found there. As far as I remember there are only three relevant chapters in the Shobogenzo. We are never free of our individual karma as far as I know until enlightenment. Is this not disappointing? I think teachers should at least emphasize we should not act in a wish to get these rewards from Heaven. Suppose we would get a negative outcome off a good deed and a [personally] beneficial one for a good deed - how should we act? Would this justify evil or wrongness?
I am not in the place of Heaven. I have not acquired their wisdom or their knowledge. - But somehow this issue seems to suck.
I wish teachers, enlightened teachers that is, - would direct those following them or listening to them in accord with what I am saying here. Even If a teacher says once in a while you should not seek gain in this way but continually tells of these rewards and payments, as you might perhaps call them, - you would naturally wonder what it is really that he is pointing to. – I don't know the souls of all, - but actually you might say both positive and negative such implanted outcomes are bending our soul, our being, twisting it somewhat, - both for the worse that is. This world seems truly an unhappy one.
Showing posts with label Flagship post. Show all posts
Showing posts with label Flagship post. Show all posts
Happiness is Misery
It is often referred to happiness in the context of the spiritual path. The way. Some think of Buddhism as a way to avoid suffering, to flee from misery. This is somewhat of sanctifying dualism or even attachment, it might seem. Though not many may share my view, perhaps.
It seems as elementary as possible that pleasance or unpleasant could only exist in the existence of mind. If there isn’t any mind or consciousness nothing would naturally be joyful or painful. You don’t enjoy and you don’t suffer. It is quite funny that this point needs to be repeated or emphasized. Though practically when relating to the issue-here it might seem it is not - sometimes - so easily accepted.
- If you follow the path you come to notice, sometime, - that clear mind is no mind. Clean mind is no mind. In thorough cleaning no consciousness would remain. Self conscious mind is referred to in “Zen” fields as divided mind. When there is no divided mind - or perhaps you might say duplicated mind, - there is no mind at all. Who is there to witness that? I could not answer, I guess. Not at present, but I could not see a serious person negating the fact.
Uchiyama Roshi somewhere speaks opposing the intentional attempt to come to no-mind, but it seems to me he mainly objects to having the intention; - I don’t much like his reference there, (I don’t remember where it is, probably in his commentary to Bendowa) though I do like his words usually, and I won’t refer to it here. - We could only refer to and speak of pleasance, pleasure, joy and cheerfulness as long as we have a mind. Then we may be restricted by their nature and tied to them and their opposite phenomena many wish to avoid. If we, ideally, drop our mind completely, come to a state of “mindless mind” as that of the (ultimate) reality itself, - we would be naturally unable to experience these. Nothing is joyful for us, nothing is painful or feels bad mentally - depressive or sad or whatever, - since the extra layer of one’s personal experience added to the practical necessities of the mental structure is given up, is no longer necessary, has faded away.
The wish for absolute happiness is based on a wrong perception or understanding of things. Duality is forever relative. Good and bad spring out in opposite directions but are ever limited. And never eternal. This is their nature, I’d say. - So feeling good or feeling bad would accord too. No other way, again, I’d say.
- In a previous post relating to Master Seppo Gison I quoted four stories from the Shinji Shōbōgenzo. In the fourth story Master Joshu Jushin is asked “What is it like when we are in an eternal valley or a cold spring?”. - I would not have known this myself but the words used in the question symbolize enlightenment, - the state of one who has arrived at it, - the “ultimate state” as the commentary added to the translation has it in Nishijima’s translation I was quoting there. (https://www.aczc.org/shop-1/shinji-shobogenjo) Joshu is practically saying happiness is never something even to be sought after. He is fully negating the common expectations rooted in the common and normal state where feeling good is considered what is to be aspired through an absent minded state corresponding to the way everyone else see things. - Happiness is nothing. Feeling good or bad is very important as a guide through many different stages and states. - But eventually the best to be sought after is the total absence of mind, - a “mindless mind” as I would call it, - to make clear this doesn’t mean to imply any existence of matter as contrary to the mind. But preferring happiness over misery as a matter of principle - as for their experiences themselves, - is fundamentally wrong. Though of course preferring it due to what it may come as an expression of is different. Joshu is saying “Fuck joy”, it is all very nice but when coming to what may be related to as the ultimate thing to look for, the ultimate aim or purpose, the state human existence is created as a tool to come to, - this is not what it’s about. When we freely function without any need for a personal awareness the notion of pleasance, of feeling good or bad, of [our own] joy or sorrow, - is no longer there. Our mind has done its thing, - fulfilled its mission, - and it may fade off. Such is my understanding. It ought to be clarified that else than for the very meaning of “an eternal valley” and “a cold spring” as a metaphor or an imaginative what I brought here is not from the commentary in the book I mentioned and does not derive from there. It is my own view, I could not see could be wrong. (I also disagree with what the commentary says about Joshu’s answer to the monk’s further question there, and with its relating to Seppo’s response to Joshu’s answers, but I will not bring my relevant opinions or questioning regarding it here. This post is to be focused on one point, and so it has been.)
It seems as elementary as possible that pleasance or unpleasant could only exist in the existence of mind. If there isn’t any mind or consciousness nothing would naturally be joyful or painful. You don’t enjoy and you don’t suffer. It is quite funny that this point needs to be repeated or emphasized. Though practically when relating to the issue-here it might seem it is not - sometimes - so easily accepted.
- If you follow the path you come to notice, sometime, - that clear mind is no mind. Clean mind is no mind. In thorough cleaning no consciousness would remain. Self conscious mind is referred to in “Zen” fields as divided mind. When there is no divided mind - or perhaps you might say duplicated mind, - there is no mind at all. Who is there to witness that? I could not answer, I guess. Not at present, but I could not see a serious person negating the fact.
Uchiyama Roshi somewhere speaks opposing the intentional attempt to come to no-mind, but it seems to me he mainly objects to having the intention; - I don’t much like his reference there, (I don’t remember where it is, probably in his commentary to Bendowa) though I do like his words usually, and I won’t refer to it here. - We could only refer to and speak of pleasance, pleasure, joy and cheerfulness as long as we have a mind. Then we may be restricted by their nature and tied to them and their opposite phenomena many wish to avoid. If we, ideally, drop our mind completely, come to a state of “mindless mind” as that of the (ultimate) reality itself, - we would be naturally unable to experience these. Nothing is joyful for us, nothing is painful or feels bad mentally - depressive or sad or whatever, - since the extra layer of one’s personal experience added to the practical necessities of the mental structure is given up, is no longer necessary, has faded away.
The wish for absolute happiness is based on a wrong perception or understanding of things. Duality is forever relative. Good and bad spring out in opposite directions but are ever limited. And never eternal. This is their nature, I’d say. - So feeling good or feeling bad would accord too. No other way, again, I’d say.
- In a previous post relating to Master Seppo Gison I quoted four stories from the Shinji Shōbōgenzo. In the fourth story Master Joshu Jushin is asked “What is it like when we are in an eternal valley or a cold spring?”. - I would not have known this myself but the words used in the question symbolize enlightenment, - the state of one who has arrived at it, - the “ultimate state” as the commentary added to the translation has it in Nishijima’s translation I was quoting there. (https://www.aczc.org/shop-1/shinji-shobogenjo) Joshu is practically saying happiness is never something even to be sought after. He is fully negating the common expectations rooted in the common and normal state where feeling good is considered what is to be aspired through an absent minded state corresponding to the way everyone else see things. - Happiness is nothing. Feeling good or bad is very important as a guide through many different stages and states. - But eventually the best to be sought after is the total absence of mind, - a “mindless mind” as I would call it, - to make clear this doesn’t mean to imply any existence of matter as contrary to the mind. But preferring happiness over misery as a matter of principle - as for their experiences themselves, - is fundamentally wrong. Though of course preferring it due to what it may come as an expression of is different. Joshu is saying “Fuck joy”, it is all very nice but when coming to what may be related to as the ultimate thing to look for, the ultimate aim or purpose, the state human existence is created as a tool to come to, - this is not what it’s about. When we freely function without any need for a personal awareness the notion of pleasance, of feeling good or bad, of [our own] joy or sorrow, - is no longer there. Our mind has done its thing, - fulfilled its mission, - and it may fade off. Such is my understanding. It ought to be clarified that else than for the very meaning of “an eternal valley” and “a cold spring” as a metaphor or an imaginative what I brought here is not from the commentary in the book I mentioned and does not derive from there. It is my own view, I could not see could be wrong. (I also disagree with what the commentary says about Joshu’s answer to the monk’s further question there, and with its relating to Seppo’s response to Joshu’s answers, but I will not bring my relevant opinions or questioning regarding it here. This post is to be focused on one point, and so it has been.)
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